What do you think?

Edited April 29Apr 29 by Chris

I don't even see the use in going there anymore.

The last time I was there was, I think about six months ago, looking for work boots. So many of those storefronts were empty. The ones that still supposedly had a business in them, there was no one there and the gates were pulled down. It's gonna be really hard to pay that high lease payment each month if you're not open to do business.

It's astonishing to me how little effort is put into that place. With some vision they could do more with it, including retail.

As for the size of it vs the number of stores then sure, it's a ghost town. I however do have specific stores I shop at there and several have recently increased hours and there is a reason. People are shopping at those stores. My DIL store Hot Topic is busy quite a bit. Every time I'm in Penneys it's busy. People are using the event spaces and the workout places (pickleball) so yes it is being used. The pretzel place and food court also do good business.

I stick with my original thoughts that they should consolidate as much as they can on one end and find some other use for the rest of it.

I can only recall being there once since the pandemic....for the car show late on a Friday afternoon. That should generally be one of the busiest times in a week for traffic. Only about a third of the businesses were open.....even a good share of places still in business were closed for the day before 5pm.

It was creepy.

Arnot Realty is an extremely wealthy corporation that has plenty of resources to improve the Mall on their own. The Mall's current state of disrepair is a reflection of their own business choices.

As much as I'd like to see the location brought back to life, I really hope the CCIDA and/or STEG don't divert any funds to support it (or to support any projects that past/current STEG/CCIDA board members, sponsors and investors hold a stake in).

The complaint I have heard from most business owners I know personally who operate there is maintenance. They don't want to spend a dime on maintenance. It was freezing there in the winter, pipes were breaking. Electric doors wouldn't work. Overall plumbing and A/C wouldn't work. They wrote those leases tight and it all falls on the tenants to fix but the mall doesn't handle the common area's correctly and it's a ripple effect. Tenants are getting sick of it and moving. Burlington & Kaye Jewelers come to mind. They just moved to better spaces.

Oh, 50% off at Burlington in the mall location right now.

Edited April 29Apr 29 by KarenK

3 minutes ago, KarenK said:

The complaint I have heard from most business owners I know personally who operate there is maintenance. They don't want to spend a dime on maintenance. It was freezing there in the winter, pipes were breaking. Electric doors wouldn't work. Overall plumbing and A/C wouldn't work. They50% o wrote those leases tight and it all falls on the tenants to fix but the mall doesn't handle the common area's correctly and it's a ripple effect. Tenants are getting sick of it and moving. Burlington & Kaye Jewelers come to mind. They just moved to better spaces.

Oh, 50% off at Burlington in the mall location right now.

Maintenance factors are likely what fully tanked it. When I worked at Radio Shack in the late 90s they were already failing. Just tossing orange cones all over the corridors instead of addressing leaky roofs and broken tiles, etc. Some AC units were non-functional for months/years (JC Penney was intolerable at times).

I also remember when Rex was allowed to move in, Radio Shack corporate was fighting them for violating the non-compete clause that had been around since the beginning.

3 hours ago, KarenK said:

I however do have specific stores I shop at there and several have recently increased hours and there is a reason. People are shopping at those stores. My DIL store Hot Topic is busy quite a bit. Every time I'm in Penneys it's busy.

I couldn't even tell you what stores are there right now other than Penneys and the Shoe Dept. Those are really the only two places I've gone the last couple of times I've been there. However I did do a walk around and sure, there were other places, even a couple I may have popped in and looked around. But the gates were pulled down and the lights off. Given the time of day, they should have been open. After seeing that a couple times, who's going to bother trying to come back again later?

3 hours ago, KarenK said:

The complaint I have heard from most business owners I know personally who operate there is maintenance. They don't want to spend a dime on maintenance. It was freezing there in the winter, pipes were breaking. Electric doors wouldn't work. Overall plumbing and A/C wouldn't work. They wrote those leases tight and it all falls on the tenants to fix but the mall doesn't handle the common area's correctly and it's a ripple effect. Tenants are getting sick of it and moving. Burlington & Kaye Jewelers come to mind. They just moved to better spaces.

Oh, 50% off at Burlington in the mall location right now.

That's the truth and I saw that first hand, more than once.

Plumbing issue? Tenant pays for it. HVAC system not working? Tenant pays for it. An exterior door needs to be replaced? You guessed it.

I asked what the hell my boss what the hell the lease covered. He said, "You're standing on it." You're paying for just the square footage, nothing more. And not only are those leases written tight, they control whether you close early for inclement weather among other things.

Mall management shot that place in the ass 15-20 years ago.

Speaking to my point about "vision" earlier, I got to thinking more about this topic and it reminded me of a conversation I had with one of the past mall managers.

I mentioned how there was so much space, they should consider a weekly farmer's market, particularly in the colder months. Maybe even open it up to craft vendors, so long as they are local and it's not that crap imported from China that you sometimes see at flea markets. Like actual artisan stuff.

They responded that they tried it once, but farmers didn't want to pay the table fees. Now, it's been well over ten years since that conversation so I don't recall if the specific price for a table was mentioned. I suspect that it wasn't, but I also remember thinking at the time that they were trying to overcharge for such a thing to make a profit off that. My suggestion was to make it a very small fee or make it free if the vendors brought their own tables and see what happens. They kind of poo-poo'd the idea and that was that. ( Although they did do a "farmers market" under a big tent in the parking lot for one or two seasons. )

But all I could think of was people going around buying some produce, eggs, meats, etc. from local farmers. Maybe picking up a Christmas present or something made by a local artisan. Then they may do a little shopping elsewhere, pick up some lunch in the food court or a coffee at the shop that was there at the time. So you're not making huge, or ANY, money off of it, but you have people coming there who may not otherwise.

Have live music in Center Court. Smaller, acoustic type acts on a Friday or Saturday evening.

Have an indoor version of "Holly Days' for Christmas.

You can think stuff like this up all day if you want. It's this absolutely huge space with so many possibilities. Sometimes it just takes someone wiping the dollar signs from their eyes.

They do have vendor shows there all the time. I would assume the space is relatively cheap because they pack a crowd for it. It was in the event space but not sure if that's what they still use or not. One year they let vendors take up empty store fronts which I thought was brilliant since it forced people to walk the mall and give some of the actual paying mall lessors some exposure.

6 minutes ago, KarenK said:

They do have vendor shows there all the time. I would assume the space is relatively cheap because they pack a crowd for it. It was in the event space but not sure if that's what they still use or not. One year they let vendors take up empty store fronts which I thought was brilliant since it forced people to walk the mall and give some of the actual paying mall lessors some exposure.

What I was talking about was have the vendors all throughout the mall, in the common space, on a regular basis. An indoor farmer's market. Not just a craft fair or some other special event.

And remember, at the time I'm referring to those "event spaces" were actual stores, not empty ass store fronts that someone was scrambling to figure out how to utilize.

20 minutes ago, Chris said:

but I also remember thinking at the time that they were trying to overcharge for such a thing to make a profit off that. My suggestion was to make it a very small fee or make it free if the vendors brought their own tables and see what happens. They kind of poo-poo'd the idea and that was that.

21 minutes ago, Chris said:

Then they may do a little shopping elsewhere, pick up some lunch in the food court or a coffee at the shop that was there at the time. So you're not making huge, or ANY, money off of it, but you have people coming there who may not otherwise.

At its inception, this was a major part of the business model that made malls a popular trend.

It built on the tried and true marketing/retail approach known as the "loss leader" strategy. From ample free parking to regular events and exhibits.....Malls offered "free" benefits that downtown shopping lacked. The costs to provide those free benefits was more than paid back by drawing traffic that supported their primary revenue (prosperous retail tenants).

Basically the same concept as a bar investing in a band. Unlike a concert venue where the ticket sales are the primary "product"........the bar band is a "loss leader" whose purpose is to get customers to show up and buy drinks.

The Mall's primary revenue (tenant leases) started taking a hit once they abandoned the "loss leader" model by trying to turn the free benefits into additional revenue streams.

Bingo!

3 hours ago, Chris said:

I couldn't even tell you what stores are there right now other than Penneys and the Shoe Dept. Those are really the only two places I've gone the last couple of times I've been there. However I did do a walk around and sure, there were other places, even a couple I may have popped in and looked around. But the gates were pulled down and the lights off. Given the time of day, they should have been open. After seeing that a couple times, who's going to bother trying to come back again later?

we see it often as we take youngest up to the Martial arts gym. basically that, the Phillipino place upstairs the shoes store( Panosians has had lackluster selection lately) and occasional arcade visit.

i still think the sears section would have great potential for residential spaces with 130k sq feet to work with but its listed for sublease and likely owner wanting top $$ itll likely slowly rot

3 hours ago, KarenK said:

They do have vendor shows there all the time. I would assume the space is relatively cheap because they pack a crowd for it. It was in the event space but not sure if that's what they still use or not. One year they let vendors take up empty store fronts which I thought was brilliant since it forced people to walk the mall and give some of the actual paying mall lessors some exposure.

Bit off topic but: the person putting those on looks like they've moved it to lecom center, the site has no events at the mall so far. ive done some vendor shows around the area some of them are well done and can be "profitable" but then most are set up kind of wonky such as:

1. Heating and cooling in the space is not controlled or accessible by any ABC LLC staff.  We are provided the space as-is.

2. Lighting and power in the space is not controlled or accessible by any ABC LLC staff.  We are provided the space as-is.

3. Vendors will provide all display tables, tents and counters necessary for product sales, as applicable.

4. Every Vendor will be required to donate an item for the raffle, which will be drawn at the conclusion of the event.

So i pay anywhere from 75 to 150 dollars for the space and thats essentially ALL i get for the money( kind of like Mall tenants) i provide everything else, pay for insurance, if lighting sucks or is non-existent TFB, if its too hot or too cold( affects how inclined potential customers are willing to be in a given space) TFB, AND i have to give away an item for a raffle i have no idea where the revenue from it goes, whether ive sold nothing or everything....many of such places the only one making out well, is the person hosting

53 minutes ago, ADAM said:

we see it often as we take youngest up to the Martial arts gym. basically that, the Phillipino place upstairs the shoes store( Panosians has had lackluster selection lately) and occasional arcade visit.

i still think the sears section would have great potential for residential spaces with 130k sq feet to work with but its listed for sublease and likely owner wanting top $$ itll likely slowly rot

Sears is actually owned separately by a private owner. I think there is a rental/storage space there now. It doesn't belong to the Mall so they would have to buy it or lease it back

I saw a picture online that GNC is now closed:

The fall of the mall, once a symbol of American consumerism, has long been chronicled. But walking around the decaying site where I once spent my youth hit me hard and underscored how dramatically shopping has changed. It also shows how malls are experiencing a K-shaped split — the high end thriving, while malls catering to middle- to lower-income shoppers are struggling.

Four miles away is The Mall at Short Hills, which features such high-end stores as Nordstrom and Gucci as well as digital natives like Untuckit. It bustles. I saw groups of teens shopping the racks at stores like Abercrombie & Fitch, taking videos on their cellphones. They’re helping to drive a resurgence.

Source

Arnot Mall sold to Kohan Retail Investment Group

The new owners don't seem to have a great track record.....

Leaders accuse owner of 2 Pittsburgh-area malls of running down his properties :

Kohan bought the Mall at Robinson three years ago for $46 million, far below its assessed value of $88 million, and resulting in a $200,000 loss in property taxes for Robinson Township. Since then, the property appears to be headed down that same road. Tenants say the grass hadn't been cut all summer, the escalators haven't worked since February and buckets collect water from leaking roofs.

And in Illinois, they're not paying taxes:

SouthPark Mall owners owe $400K in taxes :

The situation began in April of last year, when Kohan Retail Investment Group purchased SouthPark Mall for $10.4 million. Since then, the company has missed all four property tax installment periods, bringing the total owed to about $404,000.

Sounds like they’ll squeeze every tax benefit and dollar out of the place while letting it slide further into disrepair and desolation.!

Last one out, turn off the lights ( if the electric isn’t already shut off. )

I sure af hope they didn’t get any tax breaks.  

Any local official insane enough to offer that invstor any incentives with their horrific record deserves to be metaphorically tarred and feathered.

Watching WENY News about their other malls, it’s likely that things are just go from bad to worse.

1 hour ago, Chris said:

Watching WENY News about their other malls, it’s likely that things are just go from bad to worse.

im half tempted to see what the owner of Mugen Martial Arts has planned if thats the case, hopefully something local can be found to continue, its good for the boy and i know the gym is making some serious bank( discounting the rent they get gouged)